1. You've said that the church under Christendom basically has got it wrong. The Missional Leader says it's now obsolete, not wrong. In class you said that the church has been missing the boat for 17 centuries. (if I phrased that too strongly sorry I'm really trying to repeat what you said).
2. The Missional movement is about the proclamation of the "Kingdom of God" or the "Reign of God." This is definitely a focus of Jesus' teachings. In studying for another class we brought up the point that the focus of Paul's teaching is clearly the gospel.
I've got two questions:
1. What focus is there on the gospel or more specifically in evangelical language, "asking Jesus in your heart?" Last class time you said the Missional Movement was broader than the scope of evangelicalism. So my guess is that you'll say this focus is among some but not all. With mainline denominational churches it's less about the individual and more about God's calling on the community. With some reformed thought, it's not individual election but communal election. With Lutherans, and many others, it's about being a part of the community of believers. So the focus is on the church community and not the individual.
SO my question is where does the gospel fit into the Missional Movement, specifically in regards to a personal relationship with Jesus?
2. If the church has been wrong for 17 centuries, what about the canon? The canon was put together post-Constantine. Is it merely a product of Christendom? I don't know. If you toss out the Christendom, do you toss out everything? Along with this, what doctrinal creeds are widely accepted in the Missional Movement, the apostles Creed, etc.? I'm not accusing y'all of not accepting the canon but how do you take the authority of scripture in 66 books and be so adamant on the error of the church under this time frame being so bad.
SO what is the Missional Movements acceptance of the canon, creeds and any doctrinal assertions post 311AD?
3 comments:
Todd:
I invite you to do some of your own digging and come up with some of these answers yourself. I would rather have you come to your own conclusions after searching the literature. It seems to me that whatever I present you are somewhat predisposed to disagreeing out of hand. Have I ever negated the centrality of the Gospel in class? To answer your first question - the Gospel is central.
Also, though we are a community and the Spirit has been poured out upon the community, we are all indvidually apart of the community. The heresy of the enligtenment which has so shaped modern day Christianity (including evangelicalism) is the championing of the individual over the community -- individualism is more aking to englighement ideals and less so the Gospel. But for too long, whether it was Greek philosophy or Englightement philosophy we sought to see the Gospel through these lenses, rather than seeing philosophy through the lens of the Gospel. What does it mean for us all to be members of the Body of Christ -which is greater the members or the Body?
And also, just because we sin, does that mean God does not do anything on our lives? By no means. Though the church for 17 centuries aligned itself with principalities and powers that Jesus defeated upon the cross, does not mean that the Spirit of God was completely removed from the church -- there are renewal movements throughout the entire history of the church. In fact the anabaptists beginning around 1525 began expressing a post-Christendom witness - though Lutheran and Reformed traditions still valued their collusion with the state.
So what about the canon - did they seek the Spirit in forming the canon? Was its formation only politically driven? You answer me.
My point in critiquing the 17 centuries of the churches history is that the church tended to give both what was Caesars and what was God's to Caesar (at least largely the leadership of the church) - it is interesting to note that most, if not all, of the renewal movements in the history of the church began with what the clerics deemed as lay - and often these renewals came through persecution not by pagans but by the eccelesial powers.
But Todd I encourage you to dig into this for yourself some more. Check out Biblical Seminary's Missional Journal - it might help provide some further understanding as well.
Roland
I don't want my questions to come across as mean spirited. I do have serious problems with the missional church, emergent church and especially Brian McLaren.
These views diverge from what I see is the thrust of scripture and the heart of scripture. In my mind these views come from being burnt on church and the ways things have been done. Maybe it's too close to home for me with their innate cynicism and line of questioning.
I'm going through a time of being hurt at the church I left. I guess in that I've spread my hurt onto these discussions. I'm sorry if I've done that. Forgive me.
Todd,
Maybe a new approach to the missional problem is in order for you. Instead of trying to find what is wrong with it, and looking at the world as it is, try to agree with it, and free your mind of the present world. As soon as you feel yourself being pulled back into your current way of thinking, reject it, and think "missionally." If you do this, I think you will find that it is heresy not to approach the church missionally.
Can the church be wrong for 1700 years? Yes. As a parent I run into older, in fact just yesterday, they said they wouldn't raise a kid the way I do, and that their generation did it differently. Three major thoughts to that, just because it has been the way we were doing it, doesn't make it right. The RC church is wrong! I am not going to hell because I don't attend an RC church. But for 1700 years the RC church has stated that. Second, times change. The way we did it then isn't the way we should do it now. Maybe we got it wrong and started down the wrong path. And finally, hopefully we learn something along the way.
I don't think you have to fear that you will convert to missional thinking since you are so against it, so why not open your mind and consider that missional may not be wrong. You won't convert but maybe you'll open your eyes to how the other side thinks.
I do suugest that you read some of the NT again. Take out all your preconceived ideas about the church as it is. Forget how we do communion, and try to read the text without the ideas church has put in your mind.
You cannot get away from the way you were taught and raised easily. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are so engrained in our thoughts that we actually believe we deserve them, and culturally what we do as a church is so engrained. It is like a white man saying he knows how a black man thinks...He can't. But neither can a black man know how I think. But we can try. That is what you need to do, but it ain't easy brother. I really had to hurt my brain to get the RC church influence out.
Peace,
Mike
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